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Show Transcription >>

 

Nitesh Batra:

Hello and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Initiative podcast. We are very very honored to be at the Srishti School of Design in Bengaluru. And today we have amongst us a very renowned, artistic filmmaker, singer writer, Shabnam Virmani and we’ll spend the next half an hour to 45 minutes, speaking to her about her journey, her life and different things that she has done. Welcome.

Shabnam Virmani:

Clarity in this righteous sense leads to violence, even when you’re on the right side of things. Uncertainty, ambiguity, a healthy sense of not knowing, a mystic sense of bewilderment leads to compassion. Because then you’re not sure. We needn’t use the word beautiful. There is meaning in everything. It may be very ugly. It may be very traumatic, maybe very sorrowful. It may be very blah, but it’s there for a reason. And that is something that can emerge…. Some meaning. It is the guru. It is the Guru in front of you at all moments that you have to unlock. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Nitesh Batra:

So usually we start our conversations getting to know people a little bit better, a little bit about their upbringing, and also to know if spirituality or religion has been part of their upbringing. If you can talk a little bit about that?

Shabnam Virmani:

So my upbringing was decidedly irreligious. I was born in a very middle-class Punjabi household and Arya-Samaji background. So very scornful of rites and rituals. I grew up learning to mistrust priests and gurus and really no exposure at all to spiritual traditions of any kind. And I think even later in my student years, my inclination and interests grew much more in the direction of activism, secular ideals, Marxist thought, feminist movements. Again as you know, those ideologies keep matters spiritual, at bay. So I was schooled in that tradition in my twenties and thirties. I think it was much later in the thirties that spirituality hit me, like bonked me on the head.

Nitesh Batra:

My wife is a Arya-Samaji. So I am aware of some of the traditions and we got married in the Arya-Samaji tradition as well. And I’ve enjoyed learning about how something, how vast Vedantic tradition was and Swami Dayananda. He came about and made it accessible in different ways. And there are good things that I have learned in there and not so good things I’ve learned as well.

Shabnam Virmani:

Though actually, I should say that my family upbringing was, only for the sake of it (naam ke waaste) as Arya-samaji. I don’t think I learned much about the Arya- Samaj. It was really like a good materialistic Punjabi family. The only Pooja you did was to Laxmi on Diwali to make sure that she is appeased. And I think, maybe ” Om bhur bhuva swaha” that was the only mantra that my mother taught me. Again, not in a very meaningful religious sort of reverent way, but just as a mantra to say, when you are scared or something like that. So no religious training or atmosphere or readings or practices of any kind, actually.

Nitesh Batra:

What part of India did you grow up ?

Shabnam Virmani:

All over the country. I’m an urban nomad. My father was an air force pilot. So we kept getting transferred every two, three years. So there was no one place I could call home. And both my parents are from Pakistan, post partition immigrants into this side of the border. So really no native village in India to call my own. So yeah, urban nomad.

Nitesh Batra:

A lot of similarities between you and me. Not the air force part, but the Punjabi part, the immigrant part, it’s something that I had desired to go to Pakistan at one time, because a friend of mine who was from Pakistan was getting married and your journeys have taken you to Pakistan. I find it that we, as a human race are quite similar in many ways, despite the surface level dissimilarities that we keep bringing out about. And I think in your earlier works, which I was reading about in, especially when you were a journalist. That you started going about certain causes that really appealed to you. And I think Sati was one of the causes that you wrote about. How did that come about? And I think that was one of the biggest things I remember as a child. That it became a big thing. So I would love to hear and take you back many years.

Shabnam Virmani:

So, you know, those were the years when there was a deep desire to get out of the cities and engage with rural India in me and my peers and colleagues. And I was working as a journalist in The Times of India then. And I read in our small little two-line report in some local Hindi paper about this Sati that had happened in Deorala. So we went there to investigate. We were just, very freshly minted journalists. So, full of beans, freshly minted feminists as well, so full of beans to understand. And I think what emerged later in my life as a deeper and deeper inquiry is really the nature of religion, the nature of the role of religion and the role of women and the role of all this in human psychology and in India. A lot of my later work also kept taking me back to the village. There is a pull, even now. If you see musically, I listen to classical music and Dhrupad. I love it. But what really grabs me by the scruff of my neck, and then I’m not asking to be pulled, but I am just drawn, it is to folk music. And a lot of my earlier work in film and radio, I would find as many opportunities as I could to delve into rural music traditions. So there’s been a deep need to engage with rural India, for some reason, I can’t explain it. I think also a deep need to engage with a language tradition that is outside and convent educated in English speaking background, which was mine. I think when I started work in rural areas, I discovered quite suddenly how impoverished my education was. You know, how little I knew about the literary traditions of this land, its diversity, its rich language traditions, and certainly philosophic traditions and worldviews. So it felt like I wasn’t even aware of this , the emptiness within me…. When it started getting filled, I realized there was such a big hole in my heart waiting to be filled, you know. So, the headiness of the inquiries into Kabir and earlier work was not just Kabir, discovering Kabir the poet or whatever. It was also discovering language, the rasa of the Indian tradition in a way, and enjoying that, you know.

Nitesh Batra:

So many things were said there. And I’ll pick, a couple of them. You brought up the Kabir project, which you’ve been an integral part of. So it is a, what we think in our discussion about it…. That it is a social movement in the urban areas of the country. And it had been mostly carried forward for the last 500-600 years, mostly in the rural communities. And you’ve been a pioneer of bringing everyone together. So people are aware of his teachings. I remember, I was first exposed to when I was reading Hindi, “Kabir ke Dohe” in school and that was pretty much it. After that we lost track of various things. And now that you’ve been involved in this project, and you’ve evolved as a person also for many years, what advice do you give yourself or to your younger self? If you look back those X number of years, when you started working that you’ve been on this journey and things have been finding you, you’ve been finding things for yourself, what is that you would say to yourself, going back those many years?

Shabnam Virmani:

Say to my own younger self?

Nitesh Batra:

Yes. And I think in, in essence, what I’m saying is, you know, there are many, young people who listen to us. Who are not sure what they should do. And you know how, like you said, you were urban educated, like many of us. And we do things because our parents have asked us to do for materialistic reasons and other aspects. So that’s where the question came up to my mind that you’ve been on, on a journey, which is unique for yourself. So what is that you would say to your younger self, would you be any different? I mean, of course we all make mistakes. We all learn from those things, but if you have any thoughts about that, if not, that’s fine, but, if you have any,

Shabnam Virmani:

No. So I think, I wouldn’t do anything differently. I think I have, mostly responded, from a place of inspiration in my life. In fact, if I don’t have an inspiration, I’m a little lost. That really disturbs me. If I’m not inspired to seek, understand, share, grow in some way. And in the course of this, these journeys, what happens is that things happen that don’t fit your idea of, what you thought you were looking for. And when you confront those, or when you, when those come to you,to not turn away is what I would tell the younger generation. To not turn away from that discomfort, that this is not part of the plan. Like we all have a certain fixed ideas about ourselves. And even as creative professionals, when we are filmmakers or writers, we go out searching for something. There is a premeditated plan also, but often what presents itself is really not what you were looking for and it’s disturbing. So we turn away, but really to stop right there and say, okay. So, which is why I like to say documentary film making is an incredible metaphor for the art of living,I would say. Because what happens in a documentary film, you pick up your camera and youpoint it in a certain direction. There is agency. There is choice. I could have pointed it here, but I pointed there. But what unfolds in front of my camera is entirely out of my control as a documentary filmmaker. So quite like life, you make choices, but what happens is really not in your control. So rather than be frustrated with what is unfolding in your frame–“Life” — you could make friends with it. You could deal with that discomfort. That difference that has arisen and say, this is here for a reason. Let me engage with this discomfort. And let me find what is life or this film trying to unfold for me, you know? And as a filmmaker, I found some of my best sequences in footage, I initially ignored that I thought was useless (Says in Hindi..” Nahin mila, jo dhoondney nikle thhe, nahin mila). And then you are sitting on the editing table and you look back, or if you’re really super alert and aware, then when it is unfolding, you’re alive to it and able to adapt and dance along.

Nitesh Batra:

So what I’m listening is, or what I’m hearing is that there is beauty in everything, and it’s a certain eye, or that moment that you start noticing it, it will just be that. Like every flower is beautiful. Every human being has, something to give. And then when you’re on that journey, you might find an inspiration when you’re going out to look at everything.

Shabnam Virmani:

Yes. I mean, maybe we needn’t use the word beautiful. There is meaning in everything. It may be very ugly. It may be very traumatic, maybe very sorrowful. It may be very blah, but it’s there for a reason. And there is something that can emerge, some meaning. It is the Guru. It is the Guru in front of you at all moments that you have to unlock.

Nitesh Batra:

One of the other things that you touched upon that folk music is what has touched you. And I know a little bit about, Kabir. Like I said that we have read in school about him, we have heard him in film music, we have heard Jagjit Singh Ji, Anup Jalota Ji and ghazals, folk singing. And of course Kumar Gandharv Ji and now some of the other classical singers who have just taken different forms. What is that about folk music? As I understand you were not a singer before. That correct, right? And now you sing. But what is it about folk music that you’re like, you know, this is the direction I would like to go, and I would like to sing. You are amazing. I’ve heard you sing before, live as well.

Shabnam Virmani:

So, I mean, what I will say about folk music perhaps is not very surprising or deep, profound. I’ll say the obvious things about folk music. Which is the delight of folk music is the immediacy of access.Folk music doesn’t need 20 years of rigorous training for you to be able to experience the joy of the song in your body. And therefore it is accessible to common folk. That’s why it’s folk music. Folk music is also especially the Kabir songs that one has received through folk music. I feel why I find it perhaps more compelling than the classical renditions of Kabir is, I feel that folk music can (not always) help you engage with the “bani” first and music follows. Or music enhances the encounter with a poem or the encounter with a “shabd” or a word. Classical music can tend to move in the direction of abstract exploration of sur, tal and words are just a peg for that experience. So it’s a different experience. It too, is a very spiritual experience, can be a deeply contemplative, disturbing even, inquiring experience. So I’m not saying classical music doesn’t have value, but to hear the “chot” of a Kabir shabd, I think folk music delivers that “chot” with greater felicity and profundity and immediacy because it’s not tripping on Sur, tal improv. It’s really engaging with the spirit of the poem first. And the music is making your heart melt as you hear those words, you know. The music is priming the soil to receive the seed. The music is actually demolishing the barriers of your ego, the walls that your ego sets up, or maybe your mind, your intellect sets up, your criticallity in a negative way, all that is being dismantled by the structure of music or the impact of music. So that the Bani ki chot khari lagti hai phir, bahut khari lagti he.

Nitesh Batra:

So we’re giving importance to the actual meaning of what is coming out from the folk.

Shabnam Virmani:

Yes. And really not in this crude way that message is more important than the music. Not, not at all. In fact, sometimes the music does so much and like Kumar Ji’s music. I remember Kumar Ji’s Kabir. Well, okay. That’s true. Kumar Ji se mujhe Kabir ki chot nahin lagi, mujhe Prahallad Ji se Kabir ki chot lagi, ya dusre lok gayakon se Kabir ki chot lagi. Kumar Ji se maybe just a few phrases would pop up, Koi sunta hai,Guru Gyani, Gagan mein awaz hogayi chini, that’s it. So I don’t think I’m setting up an either or argument here. Things are far more complex than what I’m laying out, but broadly one could say with a lot of qualifications that folk music delivers the chot better than classical.

Nitesh Batra:

The other thing that really stood out to me is that… There are problems in the world, right? I mean, we’re dealing with a lot of issues now. There were issues, you know, a hundred years ago and earlier too, like you know, these issues have been there. But earlier you took on more of a, as a journalist, you were reporting them in certain ways. And now you have chosen a different medium, I would say, which is more, introspect, when you listen to these Bhajans and Kabir Bani, or some of the other recent works that you’ve been going towards. How did that shift come about? Because in your satsangs also, you ask people, you get the stories and it’s up to them. How they take the stories. But in a very different way, very soothing way. When I heard you about a story of a bird with droplets, I give that example sometimes now as well. So it’s still in my memory. But it’s very different than, what it used to be. So how have you or you know, was there a sudden shift or was there an inflection point? I know about the Gujurat Riots and, you know, and some of the other things that have happened. But the messaging is very different. The mediums are very different now. So, what inspired that change within that, this is what I want to be rather than be the activist on the street that I’m going to say that this is wrong, that’s wrong. And, you know, tell people that this is the way the society should be run.

Shabnam Virmani:

Nothing inspired that change, it wasn’t a single moment where the shift happened. It’s more that slowly, slowly, I think, my righteousness dissolved into ambiguity. Slowly, slowly. I think you need a lot of righteousness to be an activist. And sometimes that charge of that clarity, no this is wrong, it should not happen. That propels, that energy, that activism requires. And it’s very valuable and very, very important. At many other moments, though, I think it’s very healthy for people not to be clear about right and wrong. I think I want to hear more people say, I am confused. I am bewildered. I do not know. I think the process of the encounter with mysticism is an undoing of righteousness. Where you realize that everything that you state with confident sense of assertion using language is flawed. It’s reductive, it diminishes the truth. Actually, things are much more complex. So better, be silent, better be… Try and Intuit, be aware, be present. And clarity in this, righteous sense leads to violence. Even when you’re on the right side of things. Uncertainty, ambiguity, a healthy sense of not knowing, a mystic sense of bewilderment leads to compassion. Because then you’re not sure, maybe you have experienced something that I’m not aware of. That makes you say what you say that I disagree with. I don’t know. Maybe let’s sit down and talk. Maybe your experience is very particular. And so is mine. You are seeing something with your two eyes and I’m seeing with my two eyes, but really what we’re seeing cannot be seen by your eyes or mine . For that, we have to both close our eyes to experience what it is.

Nitesh Batra:

So when I close my eyes, when you close your eyes, what is Kabir to you in today’s world?

Shabnam Virmani:

I really think that matlab me agar nishkarsh nikalun or nichod nikalun is purey yatra ka, is purey safar ka, I think all we can do is honestly bear witness at all times to ourselves, at all, moments, whatever we are experiencing feeling, we must be present and observe ourselves, be present and watch. If we are a hundred percent identified with the way we feel, the way we act out of the way we feel, problem.

Nitesh Batra:

That can be tiring. If you’re always trying to be aware.

Shabnam Virmani:

It’s very tiring. It’s very exacting. The phrase Kabir will use repeatedly in many of his poems is ” Suli upar Ghar hamara, oth payo vishram ji, Athon peher hosiyar ji”. Aware, alert, sajag, all moments, at all moments. And that is where I find my ease, he says. Home is a place of ease, right? And he says, my house is on the tip of a thorn. So there is no shortcut. I’m afraid, it’s not easy. We have to have that rigor to know when we are responding, why we are responding, what humbug is creeping in, what hubris we are becoming part of, where we are becoming dishonest because of an insecure need to shore up our own ego in whatever situation. And that clarity is the only thing that will lead to more mindful action living, being, relating with each other. And of course there is right and wrong. And of course we must protest and we must. This is not a paralyzing awareness. This is an energizing awareness.

Nitesh Batra:

And it is, I think we’re getting close to our time here. So I have one final question and then, we have some short question, answers that we’ll ask you, which are fun and good things about you and your life we’ll talk about. Before we close, I want to ask about that lot of children who are growing up and you know, this is a question that is for people like me, who are young parents. And we would like to introduce the concept of kabir, because Kabir may mean many things to many people and to all children going to school and many who are unable to, because of whatever reason, how do you introduce this character and then the beautiful teachings, which are teachings for life?

Shabnam Virmani:

So I was in a session fest with 300, 400 school children in the Gujurat Yatra recently. And what popped into my head at that time was to engage the children by speaking about how Kabir overturns, everything that all the rest of the world is telling them is right. So Kabir the world tells them study hard. Kabir will say “pothi padha padh ajg Mua, pandit bhayo na koi, dhayee akshar prem ke padhe, so pandit hoye”. So, damn those books. Learn love. People will say become a big man. Bade aadmi bano. Kabir will say, “Bada hua to kya hua, jese ped khajur, panthi ko chhaya nahin, phal lage ati dur. People will say project. This whole world, especially infused, infested as we are by social media is all about proclaiming, who you are. Kabir will say, stay quiet, “bada badai na kare, bada na bole bol, hira mukh se na kahe, lakh hamara mol”. Like that you can go on and on and on. The world will say win, life is about winning. Kabir will say, lose. The world will say, gather. Kabir will say, give up. The world will say loot. Kabir will say, be looted. So it’s endless, the reverses that Kabir will invite you to engage with. And there are many wonderful songs. I think songs is the best way to engage children and why children, even adults. It’s a time tested vehicle of mass communication, the song, right? So really we’ve done some small experiments with some educators and artists in taking Kabir to schools and colleges in more interesting creative ways and always song music, craft. We’ve put this up on our website, www.ajabshahar.org , in a section called classroom. Some of the experiments we’ve done, which don’t say, is dohe ka arth kya he. Please, let’s stop saying that. Let’s stop reducing poetry to its message and allow students and children and ourselves to Intuit wordlessly what the meaning of the poem is and how it speaks to you. Let’s not do “shabdaarth”. Let’s start there.

Nitesh Batra:

Those are the places to look at. And some parents might look at those places and I’m sure educators will do. But it’s a journey journey for us to bring that. And I think that movement has started in many ways. Of course, Kabir as a metaphor and people are on this journey. So hopefully as we learn and grow as humanity, we might be able to make certain changes, which might bring us the uncertainty that you talked about. So just to close, we ask our interviewees some small questions and you can give short answers, long answers, one word. So the first question: One childhood memory that just stands out to you. As I say, the word childhood, what pops out.

Shabnam Virmani:

Desolation, fear of abandonment. Though, I had a very, very happy childhood.

Nitesh Batra:

One place in the world that you would like to go visit or have visited.

Shabnam Virmani:

One place in the world where I would like to go, or I have gone to. Nothing specific stands out because I actually realize I relate to places through people. I don’t relate that much to the place as in the geography. So nothing is coming to mind, right now.

Nitesh Batra:

That’s perfect. One, maybe I know the answer to this question. One person that you would like to meet in history, going back in time.

Shabnam Virmani:

So, you would probably think I will say Kabir. But I think I would rather meet a woman called Sassi. This comes out of our research into the sharp Dullati Bhitai tradition, oral tradition. He’s a Sindhi Sufi poet, and he draws on love legends from the Sindhman Punjab region. And one of the love legends, he draws on his Sassui Punnu and Sassi is a woman who is wandering in a landscape of utter desolation– a desert. The sun is beating down overhead and she says, “Sorrow, it is in your arms that my beloved comes to me.” And that’s her quest. She knows sorrow is the path. Sorrow is the guru. And she walks and she keeps walking. She keeps walking in search of her retreating beloved. And at some point she realizes that Punnu, who she is seeking, she is herself. So I think I’d like to walk a bit with Sassi in that scalding desert.

Nitesh Batra:

So in your lifetime….this is a podcast about Mindfulness. So we usually ask what is the most unmindful thing that someone has done to you or asked a question that has been so unmindful that’s like… Really? Is that the question that this person is asking?

Shabnam Virmani:

Well, I was once asked by a journalist when we were organizing the Shah Latif festival in Bangalore. She actually asked me on the phone, can I set up an interview with Mr. Shah Latif ? I said, okay. Now that probably tops the lack of homework done by journalists. You know, you’ve really hit the ceiling. So I said, you’ll have to go back in time almost 500 years to set up an interview with Mr. Shah Latif, but there you have it.

Nitesh Batra:

Alright. one last one. Your favorite, song or film or book, pick anyone?Or all three of them.

Shabnam Virmani:

Oh my God. That’s a difficult question. There are so many songs and so many books and so many films that have shaped anybody. To pick one would be like, Hmm, really? I can’t pick one.

Nitesh Batra:

Alright, so we will make it easy. Can you please sing one of your favorites? Yes. If that’s a possibility.

Shabnam Virmani:

Okay. I’m not going to sing what I will claim is a favorite song. I will sing a song that is on the top of my head at any given point, kuchh na kuchh to ramta hai, so I’ll sing that , two lines…. “Aisi bhari prit nibha…….

Nitesh Batra:

Thank you. Thank you so much. That was so beautiful. Thank you so much Shabnam for taking the time to speak with us, sharing a short part of your…such a beautiful life. You have inspired hundreds and thousands, towards Kabir, if not millions and we hope that many more will get inspired over the years. And the great work that you and your team (that you started) have done, which is documenting everything, putting everything online, accessible to people. So thank you so much for what you have done.

Shabnam Virmani:

Thank you. Thank you for this conversation.

Nitesh Batra:

Thank you everyone for listening in to another episode of The Mindful Initiative podcast. If you like, what we do, please share this with your family and friends or whoever you think might benefit from this conversation. Thank you so much.

 

Editing: Juan Pablo Velasquez Luna

Transcription: Gita Venkat and Madhusmita Misra

 

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